tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post8038609250623988030..comments2023-10-17T11:11:51.586-04:00Comments on Atheist Media Blog: Focus On The Family: Anti-Bullying Efforts Promote HomosexualityDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02087144588713444364noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-66942559337671549702010-09-10T10:59:46.000-04:002010-09-10T10:59:46.000-04:00That's not an 'either', both are the s...That's not an 'either', both are the same thing. And if your solution to this problem is giving up, no wonder you don't "win minds" around here.<br /><br />Here's my misunderstanding (point), just in case:<br />The public school system exists to provide education to a population that it's vast majority does not understand (and therefore can't comply with) the complex social structure of their society. So, in order to be able to provide education to this "wild" and concentrated populace, the school enacts a simplified and non-democratic social structure within it's boundaries. A structure designed to enable the system to provide education to the largest number of participating individuals.<br /><br />I'm sure you know all this and quite annoyed by my explanation, so why does it seem that you fail to understand the logical conclusion: that by sending your child to school, you accept the fact that your child will be forced to comply with the social demands of that system, which may include a limited freedom of action and speech.<br /><br />The bill in question is simply an update to the social structure your child is not forced in any way to comply with, if you don't commit them to that educational system. (which you're not forced to do)<br /><br />Assuming the existence of the data mentioned in the video and all of the above being true, the only point to debate I can see from your view is the date of enactment, which I assume you would argue to be the next school year in order to not force it on children who's parents sent to school before the bill.BluePrintnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-92086811692848004152010-09-09T20:11:00.000-04:002010-09-09T20:11:00.000-04:00I'm gay so I'm for anything that promotes ...I'm gay so I'm for anything that promotes homosexuality.PhillisDorrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-23880871085891121402010-09-09T14:43:05.000-04:002010-09-09T14:43:05.000-04:00The main disagreement here isn't whether kids ...The main disagreement here isn't whether kids are going to pick up things form their environment or be exposed to the thoughts of others, it's whether parents or government should have the final say in what ideas kids are exposed to.Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-7746876354291590112010-09-09T14:35:32.000-04:002010-09-09T14:35:32.000-04:00Let's assume that some amount of brainwashing ...Let's assume that some amount of brainwashing / education is needed. Who decideds what tpye of education that is? I feel it should be parents. This bill is one more (significant) step away from parents deciding the values their children are taught.<br /><br />Also, are you aware of Henry Ford's views on education? What you've stated seems to be very close to what he's said about 'education' mainly being there to keep the masses in line so that they can be good workers for the 'special' people. I think the world can handle it if we cut back on the social conditioning. Who knows, maybe we'll get more special people, when thought rather than repetition are encouraged in the classroom.Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-33003292587034875962010-09-09T14:04:01.000-04:002010-09-09T14:04:01.000-04:00Unfortunately, Marx's dream was never tried.Unfortunately, Marx's dream was never tried.Brandonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-37113336358607076862010-09-08T20:53:43.000-04:002010-09-08T20:53:43.000-04:00I don't find it likely that she misspoke since...I don't find it likely that she misspoke since she not only stated it in plain words, but also argued for it.<br />But please, if you have a likely interpretation of what she actually meant then do tell.<br /><br />I'm not arguing for or against the law since I don't know enough about the subject, but I will gladly say that the two women arguing for the law are making a better case for their point of view on the whole.<br />But I'm not impressed by the knee jerk reaction to defend obviously stupid statements just because they were made by people "from our side". Call a spade a spade and stupid stupid. Her statement was stupid, very stupid.Oskar Holmströmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-63179941583404560422010-09-08T19:54:25.000-04:002010-09-08T19:54:25.000-04:00I know I'm commenting on an old conversation, ...I know I'm commenting on an old conversation, so please bear with me. Again, every thing we teach our kids is thought control. Just saying. What kid do you know that is allowed to TOTALLY think for themselves and make their own decisions and create their own opinions, without fail, for their entire childhood and life? I suspect the answer would be none.michelleleighnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-55104319032273983862010-09-08T19:43:23.000-04:002010-09-08T19:43:23.000-04:00Andrew,
Just throwing in my two cents here, but o...Andrew,<br /><br />Just throwing in my two cents here, but of course public school is not forced. The things you say, districting, homeschooling regulations, and taxes do not make public schooling forced. You do have the right and the choice to school your kids how and where you choose. You just might not like the consequences of the choices. Moving homes, paying taxes though your kids don't use the schools, testing of homeschool students do NOT force anyone into public schools. You are more than welcome to choose any of the options. Please do not claim that not liking your choices because they are difficult or inconvenient for you, are the same thing as having no choice at all. I thought that as a Libertarian you valued personal responsibility. (I would have pointed out the benefit to all in a community of an educated populace, but see that 1984 beat me to it!)<br /><br />Also, as a public school teacher, I believe it is necessary to point out specifically what is off-limits to the kids as far as bullying is concerned. Most of them really do not understand sometimes why what they say is offensive and it is up to me to let them know. As I keep reading about "indoctrination", let me just say for the record that that is exactly what we all do to kids. Parents and schools especially. For goodness sake, that's what public schools were created for! (Literally, research the history of public schooling.) We want to make good little citizens and workers out of them all, therefore they NEED to be "brainwashed." How many little kids do you know that want to follow directions, stand in line silently, sit when they're told to, move when and how they're told to, etc. If not for schooling, whether public, religious, private, etc., these little people would never be the good, obedient, subservient employees every mid-level manager dreams of hiring.michelleleighnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-14096418915289555992010-09-08T19:05:11.000-04:002010-09-08T19:05:11.000-04:00They're not insults. They're pretty astute...They're not insults. They're pretty astute observations. But then I guess that the offense to the lack of sensitivity you keep preaching about on here should be prescribed to you.Brandonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-33790320301814882812010-09-08T19:03:21.000-04:002010-09-08T19:03:21.000-04:00In the context of the entire conversation and by g...In the context of the entire conversation and by going beyond the video to see these people's positions, you'd understand that there was an omission of word or statement. That was not their intention and now you're just being disingenuous to a statement out of context to debunk an entirely well-founded law.Brandonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-53574821693148183992010-09-08T18:59:30.000-04:002010-09-08T18:59:30.000-04:00You are acting as if people who opt for the second...You are acting as if people who opt for the second option to be stated are against the first. We're ALL for letting them know the consequences, but teaching historical context is not wrong. Explaining to a child WHY something might be offensive is part of living in a civilized world.<br /><br />The first one isn't "beyond" children. It's not enough for an undeveloped mind. It needs to be taught, but the second one provides context for someone to learn from.Brandonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-22601503646408096392010-09-08T15:30:11.000-04:002010-09-08T15:30:11.000-04:00Okay, either I've completely failed at demonst...Okay, either I've completely failed at demonstrating my point or you're jsut not seeing it as what you think I'm saying is in fact nothing like what I'm trying to communicate. I guess that's a clear signal to just let this discussion end.Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-50984586512406551472010-09-08T15:00:31.000-04:002010-09-08T15:00:31.000-04:00Yes, exactly. Can't win a lawsuit without lega...Yes, exactly. Can't win a lawsuit without legal basis.<br />Parents of bullied children won't sue if the problem is being dealt with quickly and effectively by the school, and parents to bullying children can't win a suit for their child's right to harrass others.BluePrintnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-69676004349276866342010-09-08T12:56:50.000-04:002010-09-08T12:56:50.000-04:00What? You can't sue for something (and win) w...What? You can't sue for something (and win) without legal basis. This bill would establish legal basis for law suits effectively limiting free expression in schools (not so much because of the homosexuality part, but because of the statement of harrassment and bullying being equated to physical violence). This would establish the legal framework on which the law suits would be 'justified.'Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-17537704303874452972010-09-08T11:27:38.000-04:002010-09-08T11:27:38.000-04:00No, I haven't met American parens, but I do he...No, I haven't met American parens, but I do hear of actions similar to what you describe here in Israel as well. (sadly it adds my suspicion that "we" adopt mostly the bad habits of the U.S.)<br />Still, this example only strengthen the need for this bill, in my view. Making the need for specific definition of harrassment and pressing the schools to deal with it all the more apparent.<br />Because if parents will sue for any little thing, avoiding and preventing those should become top priority.BluePrintnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-72874330509850286852010-09-08T09:25:05.000-04:002010-09-08T09:25:05.000-04:00The American programming goes like this:
Tax cuts...The American programming goes like this:<br /><br />Tax cuts for the rich: Relief<br />Tax cuts for the poor: socialism/marxism/class warfare etc..1984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-8670263333811115402010-09-08T09:24:03.000-04:002010-09-08T09:24:03.000-04:00<span>I don't mean just doctors, the ex...<span>I don't mean just doctors, the example was purely rhetorical. It could be a firefighter or police, someone who's existance you benefit from one day. In other words you have a self-interest in making sure that the general populace is well-educated and well trained in what they do.</span>1984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-5113930981610907812010-09-08T09:19:13.000-04:002010-09-08T09:19:13.000-04:00I don't mean just doctors, the example was pur...I don't mean just doctors, the example was purely rhetorical. It could be a firefighter or a police, someone who's existance you benefit from one day.1984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-69709569065421208652010-09-08T06:59:51.000-04:002010-09-08T06:59:51.000-04:00The problem with your posts has been that almost e...The problem with your posts has been that almost everyone has opened with a personal insult. I've responded to some of your posts further on in this thread (because I couldn't let them stand unanswered).Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-37029254180935742692010-09-08T06:58:02.000-04:002010-09-08T06:58:02.000-04:00I have nothing but contempt for how our society co...I have nothing but contempt for how our society continues to treat teenagers as children and children as infants. Besides, you've just made a wonderful case for religion. Let's not explain the real reasons why something is wrong. But we need to give SOME reason, so let's give a simplified one to control how our children act and behave because they don't know any better. That's the kidn of attitude that I had thought the atheist community was fighting against. If children can't understand, "If you're mean to people it's probably going to come back because people remember these things." Then how will they understand, "You shouldn't insult women for being women because people used to treat females as less than human." How is the first one 'beyond' children while the second is a nessesary part of fighting harassment?Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-48833779389615489002010-09-08T06:52:15.000-04:002010-09-08T06:52:15.000-04:00"<span>I'm sure no child would rep..."<span>I'm sure no child would report a single incident of being distressed by words spoken to or near him, and repeated incidents should be considered harrassment no matter what the subject is. <br />(I'm also sure we agree that physical assault should be dealt with even on a single incident)"</span><br /><br />Physical assault ALREADY should be dealt with after a single incident based on the current law without this bill. Further your faith in children (and more importantly) parents not abusing the law to punish students for simply having contrary positions is... niave.<br /><br />I don't mean that as an insult, but really. Have you met American parents? Give them the chance to press charges or bring suit for something banal and that's EXACTLY what they'll do. And only a few have to do it in order to create an environment of hostility to openness for all our children. This is how freedom goes away, it's chipped at almost auspiciously under the banner of protection.Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-40273737136416702022010-09-08T06:51:02.000-04:002010-09-08T06:51:02.000-04:0006:45
"This is not just about the gay kids in...06:45<br />"This is <b>not just about the gay kids</b> in school, it's about everybody, because bullying doesn't exist without homophobia.<br />Kids are proving, they have to prove that they belong to be men.<br />They have to prove , you know when you are in 7th grade an you say something, you are speeking about about bullying being cruel then someone is going to say "don't be gay""<br /><br />So yeah, I was right.<br /><br /><br />Shane, I didn't comment on the study.Oskar Holmströmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-57082223364787679182010-09-08T06:46:13.000-04:002010-09-08T06:46:13.000-04:00Bah, fine brandomn I'll respond to your post. ...Bah, fine brandomn I'll respond to your post. No, they said that bullying wouldn't exist without homophobia as if use of the term 'gay' were then underlying cause of ALL bullying.Andrew Clunnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-53957099566103852152010-09-08T03:05:11.000-04:002010-09-08T03:05:11.000-04:00Then I don't see it and I think you're rea...Then I don't see it and I think you're reading into it more than there is.<br />What I see is a list of examples in what forms harrassment can appear (and therefore should be taken into account), not a hardline policy for "crackdown" on anything that can be said to be present in the list.<br /><br />To me this bill says that action to stop bullying and harrassment still depends on reports by the harrassed and bullied, so there's no restriction on what children can say to each other, and only reminds school personnel what reports they should act upon. (yet, what action is not specified)<br /><br />I'm sure no child would report a single incident of being distressed by words spoken to or near him, and repeated incidents should be considered harrassment no matter what the subject is.<br />(I'm also sure we agree that physical assault should be dealt with even on a single incident)BluePrintnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-362590194397112658.post-35151048790051165422010-09-08T02:44:46.000-04:002010-09-08T02:44:46.000-04:00No, he isn't.
They said that bullying of gay ...No, he isn't.<br /><br />They said that bullying of gay students would not exist without homophobia. And it wouldn't. There's nothing you can do about homophobia, but you can curb a child's violent behavior based on it and at least discourage it.Brandonnoreply@blogger.com